In this interview the New Enlightenment Project’s Director of Advocacy Scott Douglas Jacobsen interviews Humanist Chaplain Marty Shoemaker about the need for chaplains in humanism. Dr. Martin “Marty” Shoemaker is a trained clinical psychologist and, currently, a Humanist Chaplain at Kwantlen Polytechnic University (Multifaith Centre) and Vancouver General Hospital (August, 2014-Present). Previously, he worked as a psychologist and instructor in organizational behaviour. Here we talk about humanist chaplaincy

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Humanism is a broad term encompassing various ethical propositions, which can be divided into different areas of focus, one of which is humanist chaplaincy. Let’s discuss this from an educational perspective. What is the relevance of Humanism to Canadian socio-cultural life?

Dr. Marty Shoemaker: That’s a question we could only have answered experientially about the last 12 years, as that’s when we got our first humanist chaplain in a university. Previously, we could only discuss it as a theoretical application of Humanism or as a career. We have a fair amount of experience, but it’s mostly within universities with humanist chaplains in Canada. There is other literature about spiritual care and caretaking in Europe and the United States that, in some ways, were more advanced than in Canada. We were the last kids on the block, not getting our first chaplain until 2009, with Gail McCabe at the University of Toronto and Mary Beaty added a year later.  Gail is now retired, but Mary is still at the university.

I don’t think of chaplaincy as a specific ethical focus. It is a way to interact with people in times of need, which I have done my whole life as a psychologist and in educational contexts to share our life stance and live it out in flexible environments. This is particularly relevant in universities, where people start forming their opinions about how to live. Being a chaplain to a 75-year-old dying of cancer is very different from being a chaplain to a 20-year-old student who is unsure about following their parents’ faith.  We are sharing everyday ethics of care, so whether you’re a psychologist, social worker, chaplain, or priest, we are reaching out with compassion to be present for people in need.

Our difference is that we have no holy book dogma to rely on for guidance. We don’t have a single revealed book to turn to, like chapter 3 of John or the Quran. We rely on our internal inculcation of humanist values and principles, which we may have lived out before we knew we were humanists. Our ethics are a combination of what we might call care ethics, which are probably an extrapolation from our primate ancestors’ behaviours of taking care of each other in groups, and a more scientific approach, like John Mill’s pragmatic, utilitarian ethics, which focus on what helps the most people and hurts the fewest.

For example, consider whether people should get vaccinated in Canada. Do we allow churches to avoid vaccination, claiming it’s their religious right, even though they could be carriers? The utilitarian principle here suggests that it may violate some limited personal freedoms, but in the long run, it will help the congregation, children, and the community. So why not think about it that way? And that’s where pragmatics and data come into play.

Jacobsen: How is chaplaincy integral to acting out the humanist life stance?

Shoemaker: Okay, let’s see. As a life stance, it is a concept that has become popular among several writers and on our Humanist Canada website. It was a descriptive effort by a number of our humanist authors to avoid the word religion but to indicate it as a foundation of life. But it allows you to be a personal model for some things essential to our core principles. For example, deciding what’s right and wrong and the correct action is an epistemic principle we determine through human experience, need, science, and empirical evidence; we don’t rely on a 3,000-year-old cultural morality book of laws. That’s part of our life stance. We don’t turn to any single source or set of practices for guidance.

Instead, we use other evidence-based methods and often skepticism to understand conditions and potential failures. This approach provides a more validated perspective that can be updated and changed as new evidence or proof is presented . Our life stance, especially relevant today with climate change and potential crises, recognizes that we are naturalistic beings and part of evolutionary life on this planet. We don’t consider ourselves so unique that we can damage the Earth and expect divine intervention to save us. We are looking to experts and personal action given how our skills and technologies have impacted the world. This is a crucial part of our life stance.

Historically, this wasn’t always the case, such as during the Enlightenment and the beginning of the Industrial Age. There are also social lifestyle considerations because the majority of humanists believe in individual free will, but we also recognize our interdependence on each other and causal systems beyond our control. The power of groups to achieve goals and the need to be aware of biases and groupthink are all part of living an enlightened life stance. Understanding how group dynamics can both hinder and help progress is essential.

Ethically, living out the humanist life stance involves recognizing and accepting the dignity of every human being and learning to show compassion. Over time, this leads to a very altruistic character, making it natural to help others. This is why I am a chaplain rather than just a private practice psychologist charging $200 an hour to a limited number of clients. Self-actualization is a significant component of human life, meaning I’m responsible for my happiness and accountable for my actions. Joseph Campbell called this “following your bliss,” which involves finding joy and meaning intuitively.

Part of the humanist lifestyle is figuring this out for yourself; no one else can decide for you although we can ask for help. Finally, a more social concept of justice, beyond individual interactions, is rooted in our primate and evolved sense of fairness. This concept includes civil discourse, human rights, and using a civil litigation system to protect people under the law. All these aspects are part of the humanist life stance, and living them out daily through good habits, self-questioning, and admitting mistakes is essential.

Jacobsen: What were some of Canada’s earliest moves for humanist chaplaincy?

Shoemaker: As I mentioned, we are the new kids on the block. There are a few other denominations and certain recent sects, like pagans and some of the ancient Celtic Druid religions, that have just started to train chaplains. However, most major religious groups have had chaplains for centuries. The chaplaincy in Christianity is the first dates back to the first5th century helping various royal families and guarding prized relics placed in Chapels.  The first University chaplains began at Cambridge in the 13th century, giving Christianity an 800-year history in this area, while we have about 15 years. There’s just a slight difference there, huh?

Our first chaplain was mentioned earlier was a volunteer, Gail McCabe, at the University of Toronto. She was followed shortly by Mary Beattie, a professional librarian who brought a lot of wisdom and policy awareness to her role as a humanist chaplain. They were sponsored by the Humanists of Toronto.  I became the third chaplain in Canadian history when I joined Kwantlen Polytechnic University in 2014. We were all unaccredited as this process of training and accrediting chaplains began in 2020. We have a fourth chaplain at the University of Ottawa finishing a double doctorate, Srishti Hukku who is accredited. She was instrumental in helping us get our initial Chaplain Accreditation Committee and training in order..

We are just getting started and have faced, and will continue to face, significant barriers. The good news is that this year, 2022, we approved the first humanist chaplain in any military in North America, Marie-Claire Khadij. The U.S. does not have “secular” chaplain, as Non-religious applicants have been blocked by political barriers with the religious right and other traditional religions.  Jason Torpy runs an atheist military group and is pushing for secular chaplains we are the first group of humanists nationally in North America to get approval. This is because we took an already approved chaplain in the military who is moving over to our worldview from traditional religion. I can’t go into more detail because it’s somewhat private, but it has happened and been headlined as the First Humanist Chaplain in military history in North America. That’s exciting. So, we’re the new kids on the block, but we’re moving fast, jumping over buildings.

Jacobsen: Also, as you alluded to, what is your record and history as a humanist chaplain in Canada?

Shoemaker: My record includes being a psychologist for 50 years. Moving into an advisor role as a chaplain was a natural progression for me. Before I deconverted, I considered the ministry and attended Fuller Theological Seminary in Southern California, where I earned a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and a Master’s in Christian Thought and Theology. This qualified me to be a chaplain in an institution because I have a Master’s degree even if this is not particularly relevant to secular chaplains. It wasn’t okay for me to be accepted into a university. They invited me to apply after a faculty member learned of my lectures at SFU on Humanism as an alternative worldview to religion. Our senior administrator in student services, who is probably secular or agnostic, reached out to the British Columbia Humanists Association and asked us to send somebody for vetting. That’s very unusual, Scott, and it doesn’t usually happen.

However, this may happen more in Canada, given the high numbers of secular individuals, particularly in B.C., and less so in the Maritimes and Prairies. I think the Canadian government and the military understand that there are many nonbelievers, irreligious atheists, agnostics, secular free thinkers, whatever you want to call them, in the military, and they feel uncomfortable going to traditional religious chaplains. So, my record of attending a school like KPU was a natural encore career after semi-retiring as a psychologist. I still want to stay in a caring, guiding, and advising role, even if I’m doing it as a volunteer. The other piece of good news is that I was also accepted as a hospital community spiritual practitioner by Vancouver General Hospital in November of 2022.  This is our first placement in an institution of health care.

Jacobsen: What challenges did you face in Canada when becoming a chaplain?

Shoemaker: Honestly, when my family was growing up, and I had to make almost six figures here in Vancouver, Canada, I couldn’t have been a chaplain unless I just volunteered for a very short time. Until we get approval for alternative degrees other than these M.Div. degrees and Masters of Theology and spiritual care degrees, it will not pay because the institutions that pay — hospitals, a few prisons, and the military — pay satisfactorily. We haven’t been approved because we don’t fit the slots of education that the great churches of history traditionally set aside. They’ve dominated what it takes to be a chaplain. As I say, as a new kid on the block, we’re getting lots of support now because there are chaplains who would like to identify as humanists. They’ve already delved deeply into their holy books’ history, theology, and textual criticism. They realize many inconsistencies and unproven principles are there, and they don’t believe anymore.But to keep going, they must stay in their belief system. As we offer this, they can stay chaplains but change the label on their lapel, gaining a group of like-minded colleagues and an identity that is freeing even if only a select few recognize us at present.

Jacobsen: What are the current projects important for advancing humanist chaplaincy in Canadian society and making it more accepted as a non-supernatural alternative to celebrations of life?

Shoemaker: Humanist chaplains will be embraced quickly, mainly if we are well-trained in world religions, multi-faith, and multicultural interfaith environments, which are pluralism hubs. They are a collection of many different views. We will be welcomed except by the most extreme and threatened religious people, which could be an individual issue rather than a significant demand of that particular organization. Our advancement faces two main barriers: education and funding.

First, education now requires some Master’s degree in theology, divinity, or spiritual care, which is only partly relevant to humanists. We are motivated by other things, like counselling theory, psychotherapy, educational approaches self-improvement, such as client-centered exchanges, to help release our clients’ potential. The religious based education barrier is the biggest one in front of us and needs to be amended for secular or non-affiliated chaplains were are increasing.

Second, funding is an issue. We don’t have deep pockets. Fortunately, we have a growing association in Canada and BCHA, where I work and live. I give enough money to the organization to cover my fee to be a chaplain. Otherwise, it would have to come out of their budget. If you have a family or need to start a career and buy a house, chaplaincy is a very tenuous path unless you go through traditional education, are certified clinical pastoral care, and can work in a hospital or for the government in a competitively paying institution. So far our university or learning institutions have only volunteer chaplains unless you also teach..As mentioned government positions such as hospitals and the military will get paid around $60,000-$70,000 a year. But that’s the minority.  We need to increase our funding for training and supporting secular chaplains to not have to take only religious classes but more relevant degrees like in Ethics, Counseling Psychology, and Humanistic Studies. Funding and more secular education are now are two biggest challenges. It is not acceptance by our peers or other chaplains we work with.  In fact, in the years ahead we are going to gain interest by religious chaplains who actually wish to switch to becoming Humanists..

Jacobsen: What would you like to be your legacy as a humanist and humanist chaplain?

Shoemaker: Legacy enters my mind more as I get older. As I continue aging and, while my cerebral efficiency is still in my grasp, I’m just starting to think more about this. It will come out predominantly as an educator and promoter of this chaplaincy initiative, which is just getting started. I’m on the accreditation committee and have the honour of being the first accredited humanist chaplain in Canadian history, which humbles me. I’m not sure I deserved it because I wasn’t the first in the country, but be that as it may, I am writing a book for distribution in Multifaith Centres and among those interested in learning more about humanism. The proceeds from the book will fund chaplaincy education, promotion, and the expansion of roles where chaplains can be paid and even become consultants in their communities.

As a psychologist who has done extensive career counseling and coaching, I want to leverage my psychological skill set and consulting experience to help chaplains work in various settings, not just in prisons and hospitals but also in the public sphere. I want to see us get into the community and work in organizations as humanist ethics collaborators and advisors, coaching executives to treat employees and customers with dignity and balance profit motives with humane treatment. I am a contributing member of the International Humanist Management Association and we think alike and share our humanistic values in the workplace.

My legacy would be a hybrid of my consulting, industrial organization teaching background, and chaplaincy as a career. It can be leveraged and have status within the consulting community. I switched over relatively easily with a PhD, but for a 25-year-old without psychological training who wants to be an ambassador for Humanism, we need to find ways other than governmental institutions for them to get paid. Education and creating wage-earning careers for humanist chaplains, along with the book I am writing a present, would be the legacy I want to leave.

Jacobsen: Dr. Shoemaker, thank you for the opportunity and your time.